一文速览zksync和solana创始人对生态底层逻辑的理解

币圈资讯 阅读:36 2024-04-22 09:58:16 评论:0
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作者:rick awsb 来源:X,@rickawsb

zksync和solana两位创始人的推特互呛是难得的高手过招,他们对生态底层逻辑的理解将决定evm生态和solana生态的走向。

这是每一个投资人必须认真阅读的重要资料!

整理如下:

讨论起源于一位基金经理 @Justin_Bons 的一条推:

“不管你对SOL今天达到了扩展极限有何看法,至少SOL正在尝试,而ETH早在很久以前就放弃了扩展,SOL每天的实际使用量已经超过了1,000TPS!而ETH在过去三年中一直停滞在100TPS上,他们已经没有立足之地了!”

@zksync 的创始人Alex @gluk64 写了篇长推回复:

“1k TPS对于全球对Web3的需求来说只是九牛一毛。互联网不能依赖单一服务器运行。价值互联网不能依赖单一的庞大区块链运行,无论它有多快,也无论愿意牺牲多少分散性。

终极目标是零知识证明的奇点:

⧫ 数千个无需许可的超级链,每个链都有数千TPS; ⧫ 每个链的每个区块的零知识证明递归地聚合到一个区块中; ⧫ 最终确认在最分散、公正中立的结算层上完成(gm以太坊!);

数百万交易中的每一笔都由每个智能手机上的每个用户验证,在不到1秒的时间内(如果每个用户都无法验证,那真的算是区块链吗?)

TLDR:零知识证明实现了无限的扩展,毫不妥协(是的,从长远来看,我们也可以解决数据可用性问题;大多数数据将由终端用户托管)。

但是用户体验和流动性碎片化呢?

这些链的每个用户都将能够在几秒钟内与其他链上的任何合同或用户无缝交互 - 没有额外的成本或信任假设。只需要一个钱包确认,即可立即确认,类似于今天我们可以从任何邮箱发送电子邮件到任何其他邮箱一样。

流动性将在零知识超级链之间自由流动,无需信任这些链的验证者或之间的桥梁。

其中一些链将是私有的且保护隐私的(由银行和金融机构运营),但仍然可以与生态系统的其余部分无缝互操作。这将为流动性创造比链上世界以往所见的网络效应大出数倍的效果。”

网友提问:

alex,你认为Solana的人看不到这一点的原因是什么?你认为这只是经济原因,还是还有其他我们没有解释清楚的因素?

alex的回复:

@Justin_Bons 和 @aeyakovenko (solana创始人),你们有什么看法?

“不考虑派系,让我们互相加强对方的论点。

我钦佩Solana对其论点的坚定承诺:推动单一同步区块链引擎可以处理的边界。它的创新非常出色,特别是在并行执行和本地费用市场方面。这是所有第二层解决方案都必须拥抱的。

这种说法中有一些道理,不同的第二层解决方案可能导致用户体验和流动性的碎片化。我们将从独立的、无限可扩展的零知识第二层生态系统开始。起初,@zksync 的超级链将是无限可扩展的,它们将能够无缝地互操作,但不能与Polygon或Scroll互操作。但只要有一个成功的零知识生态系统,就足以实现这一愿景。最终,我们有可能走向在以太坊上建立一个单一的L2桥接合同,将连接所有解决方案的道路。”

toly,@aeyakovenko,Solana founder,加入讨论,回复alex:

“零知识证明(zkps)确实很棒!但它们不能解决数据库热点问题。如果可以解决,那么就有大约1000亿美元的数据库收入可供利用。它们也不能更快地传播信息到全球。Solana正在努力解决的两个问题是以光速同步状态,以及在单个原子状态机中处理尽可能多的并发热点。如果zkps有助于解决这些问题,Solana肯定会使用它们。高TPS只是高效通道利用的副产品,但不是目标。”

alex回复:

“你没有加强我的论点。

是的,你可以构建一个高效的数据库状态同步引擎,可以处理1,000,000TPS。

但这个系统的用户应该如何验证它?

通过使用零知识证明,同步处理1,000,000TPS是不可行的。异步处理却没有问题。验证时间:<1秒。”

toly回复:

运行一个完整节点。那些获取比运行完整节点成本更高价值的人将会这样做。

alex回复:

要处理1,000,000TPS的完整节点将需要一个计算集群(巨大的算力)。

谢谢,我宁可选择在手机上验证零知识证明。

toly回复:

1百万TPS可能只需要不到16个核心。你可以在手机上验证零知识证明确实很好。但正如我所说,我关心的是最大并发热点和以光速同步所有状态。无论如何,这都是一个高带宽的高可用系统。

alex回复:

"1百万是16核心"这个说法非常肤浅,因为Solana今天的TPS峰值只有1,000。而且,在1百万TPS的实际使用情况下,我需要将多少PB的状态保留在RAM中以维持这个速度?

toly回复:

交易可以占用更多计算单元或更少计算单元。系统只需要在RAM中保留与其同时处理的状态相匹配的数量。一次加载在16个核心上处理的64k个交易,使用10MB的状态,不到1GB。

我们在这里的争论到底是什么?Solana是全球同步速度尽可能快的最有效的原子单一状态机实现。如果零知识证明在这方面有帮助,它会使用它。系统的目的在于它的功能。

如果一个零知识证明系统不能完成那个特定的任务,那它是否能处理10M TPS并不重要。如果与其他系统有功能重叠,也无所谓。用户将选择对他们最有效的解决方案。

alex回复:

这个论点是:如果状态同步系统的最高效实现大约在1,000TPS左右,那么你肯定需要使用零知识证明来实现真正的全球可验证计算规模(通过证明的并行化和递归证明聚合)。

我对能够显著提高吞吐量而不对拥有完整节点的用户提出不切实际的要求的论点提出质疑。

另外一个网友提问:

如果在2024年的任何48小时时间窗口内,zkSync的持续TPS没有达到1000TPS,同时使用ETH L1作为数据可用性层,你会怎么做?

alex回复:

@zksync Era∎ - 一个单独的ZK Stack超级链实例 - 在铭文狂热期间持续维持了60TPS,超过了任何其他第二层解决方案

在高峰时期,它测得的TPS为200。今天,您只需部署4个额外的ZK Stack超级链即可达到1000TPS。


It is a rare trick for the author's source and the two founders to choke each other on Twitter. Their understanding of the underlying logic of ecology will determine the ecology and the direction of ecology. This is an important information that every investor must read carefully. The following discussion originated from a push by a fund manager. No matter what you think about reaching the expansion limit today, you are at least trying and giving up the expansion a long time ago. The actual daily usage has exceeded and has been stagnant in the past three years. They have not. The founder who has a foothold wrote a long reply, which is only nine Niu Yi hairs to the global demand. The Internet can't rely on a single server to run. The Internet can't rely on a single huge blockchain to run, no matter how fast it is or how much dispersion it is willing to sacrifice. The ultimate goal is the odd number of zero-knowledge proofs. Thousands of unlicensed hyperchains have thousands of zero-knowledge proofs in each chain, which are recursively aggregated into a block and finally confirmed in the most decentralized justice. Every transaction in the millions of transactions in Ethereum is verified by every user on every smart phone in less than a second. If every user can't verify it, is it really a blockchain? Zero knowledge proves that it has achieved unlimited expansion without compromise. Yes, in the long run, we can also solve the problem of data availability. Most of the data will be hosted by end users, but the user experience and liquidity will be fragmented. Every user of these chains will be able to connect with other chains in a few seconds. There is no additional cost or trust assumption for any contract or user to interact seamlessly. Just a wallet can confirm it immediately. Similar to today, we can send e-mail from any mailbox to any other mailbox. Liquidity will flow freely between zero-knowledge super chains without trusting the verifiers or bridges between these chains. Some of them will be private and privacy-protected, and operated by banks and financial institutions, but they can still interoperate seamlessly with the rest of the ecosystem. This will Create an effect for liquidity that is several times larger than the network effect seen by the world in the chain. Netizens ask what do you think is the reason why people can't see this? Do you think this is just an economic reason or are there other factors that we haven't explained clearly? What do you think of the reply and founder? Regardless of factions, let's strengthen each other's arguments. I admire the firm commitment to its arguments and promote the boundaries that a single synchronous blockchain engine can handle. Its innovation is excellent, especially in parallel implementation. In terms of line and local cost market, this is something that all tier 2 solutions must embrace. There is some truth in this statement. Different tier 2 solutions may lead to fragmentation of user experience and liquidity. We will start with an independent and infinitely scalable zero-knowledge tier 2 ecosystem. The initial super chain will be infinitely scalable. They will be able to interoperate seamlessly but not with or, but as long as there is a successful zero-knowledge ecosystem, it will be enough to realize this vision. Finally, we will have. It is possible to establish a single bridge contract on the Ethereum, and join the discussion to connect all solutions. It is really great to reply to zero knowledge, but they can't solve the hot issues of the database. If they can be solved, there will be about hundreds of millions of dollars in database income to be used, and they can't spread information to the world faster. The two problems that they are trying to solve are to synchronize the state at the speed of light and deal with as many concurrent hot issues as possible in a single atomic state machine. If it helps to solve these problems, Problems will definitely use them. They are only by-products of efficient channel utilization, but they are not the target reply. You have not strengthened my argument. Yes, you can build an efficient database state synchronization engine to handle it, but how should users of this system verify it? By using zero knowledge, it is proved that synchronous processing is not feasible, but asynchronous processing has no problem. It takes seconds to verify that those who get higher value than running a complete node will do so. The whole node will need a huge computing power of a computing cluster. Thank you. I'd rather choose to verify the zero-knowledge certificate on the mobile phone. It may only take less than a core to reply to a million. You can verify the zero-knowledge certificate on the mobile phone. It's really good, but as I said, I care about the maximum concurrent hotspot and synchronizing all the States at the speed of light. Anyway, this is a high-bandwidth and highly available system. It's very superficial to say that replying to a million is the core, because today's peak is only and I need it in the actual use of millions. How many states should be kept in the database to maintain this speed? The reply transaction can occupy more computing units or fewer computing units. The system only needs to keep the number matching the states it is processing at the same time. The number of states used by each transaction loaded on one core at a time is less than what we are debating here. What is the most effective atomic single state machine to achieve the fastest global synchronization speed? If zero knowledge proves helpful in this respect, it will use it. The purpose of the system lies in it. Function: If a zero-knowledge proof system can't complete that specific task, it doesn't matter whether it can handle it or not. If it overlaps with other systems, it doesn't matter whether users will choose the most effective solution for them. The argument is that if the most efficient implementation of the state synchronization system is around, then you definitely need to use zero-knowledge proof to realize the real global verifiable computing scale. I think it can significantly improve throughput through parallelization and recursive proof aggregation. Another user questioned the argument that users with complete nodes put forward unrealistic demands. Another user asked what you would do if you used it as a data availability layer at the same time within any hour window in 2008. A single hyperlink instance continued to maintain more than any other second-tier solution during the inscription craze. At the peak period, it was measured that today you only need to deploy an additional hyperlink to achieve it. 比特币今日价格行情网_okx交易所app_永续合约_比特币怎么买卖交易_虚拟币交易所平台

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